CC on your own property

[MrBi11]

I just read the thread by 05Jeep re:getting his ass handed to him in his own home...
His Thread

I was wondering what the laws in PA are regarding CC on you own property without a LTCF, in Michigan you are allowed to. I know seeing how he was OCing it's irrelevant to his case, but it brought up the question in my head as to how far his local PD are pushing things.

I'd typically just google the laws, but I keep getting links to Poofa, and it's still broke.

[jahwarrior72]

CC on your own property is perfectly legal, unless you're a prohibited person.

[gnbrotz]

(05-01-2010 09:45 AM)jahwarrior72 Wrote:  CC on your own property is perfectly legal, unless you're a prohibited person.

Not correct.

Unlicensed CC is only permitted inside your dwelling. On your porch, open property or outbuildings requires one to be licensed. The proposed language of HB 1041 would expand on this if passed. I haven't read the bill in a bit, so I forget if it will cover open property, but I believe it will at least include 'attached' porches/structures.

[TJ76]

I guess the easy solution is to get licensed.

But... what business is it of the state's what I do on my own property? Stuff like this really gets under my skin.

Here's the relevant section of the PA uniform firearms act:

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
1. Offense defined. --
1. Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

[MrBi11]

Now that Greg pointed it out I do remember reading it in the castle doctrine.

Thanks

[JayG23]

(05-01-2010 10:02 PM)TJ76 Wrote:  But... what business is it of the state's what I do on my own property? Stuff like this really gets under my skin.

Thing is, there really isn't any private property anymore. It's not yours, you lease it from the incorporated entity that (generally) represents the populace. In other words, it's leased from the government for 'rent' paid in the form of property taxes.

It's basically a chain of lease-sublease-sublease-sublease where the owner (entity in charge of the nation - AKA the federal gov't) keeps some rights for itself (such as airspace and rights to broadcast beyond that property line) and passes the rest down to the state entity which keeps some for itself, passes down to county, city, township, etc down to you.

Example: It wasn't Davy Crocket that took ownership of the land for the Louisiana Purchase, it was the national government.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...804-03.png The admission of Texas as a state didn't require the approval of every last person in the Lone Star Nation because that land didn't belong to those individuals - it belonged to that Lone Star Federal Gov't and it all transferred ownership upon taking a place with all the other states.

We've got a Fee Simple system of land ownership here. There hasn't been any real absolute land ownership by the people here since... Well, since the various crowns of europe first sent folks over here and shoved flags in the sand and said "I claim this land in the name of...". With obvious exception of land that was so far away from other people, of course. But since that moment, all this land was claimed by some king/queen, or some individual state government during the revolutionary war, passed to the federal gov't of the USA created by the articles of confederation, and finally shifted to the Constitution we honor that replaced the Articles in 1788.

So, to really have the full "Do what I want on my own property" in effect we have to turn the clock back at least to around columbus's time, to a point when no government had laid claim to any of this land and the native americans generally gave elbow room to the newcomer folks. Any later than that, and we're all walking around on some legal personhood's land, and can be ejected or evicted by law. Yeah, that irritates me too, but the anti-individual pro-business supreme court isn't moving in the direction of keeping natural person's rights above legal corporate/government personhood, so there's no change in sight.

[TaePo]

JayG23,

Glad to see another anti-corporate thinker in the crowd. I, too, believe there needs to be some adjustment. Especially as far as lobbying throwing big money to influence the gov't away from remembering the little guy. We little ones need to clean house at election time(s).

This is directed at big conglomerates and not what I would consider 'private' enterprises, btw.

It's a shame you can have land all your life and when you retire, they can take it away due to rising taxes and you are on a fixed income. Your primary residence should be hands off when you retire. Other investment properties can be taxed. You should be able to keep the land you labored for to rest your bones until you die.

With limited exceptions, I, too, think a hands off approach is best between the government and my self when it comes to what I do on my own property. Florida used to have a law where you could not let anyone see your firearm in the open on your own property or some such.

Are we not masters of our own universes? Governors of ourselves? I guess we are not.

[TJ76]

Well, the government may have ultimate claim to my land if I don't pay my taxes, or if there's coal under it, or if they want to build a highway (they still have to pay me). I understand that.

But, I don't need a "public" license to do other things on my "private" land. Right? I don't need a license, registration, or insurance to operate my ATV on my own land. Or car. Or motorcycle (M stamp).

The concealed carry permit requirement seems out of place. Let's hope the legislation gnbrotz referred to is passed.

[fingers]

(05-02-2010 10:24 PM)TJ76 Wrote:  Well, the government may have ultimate claim to my land if I don't pay my taxes, or if there's coal under it, or if they want to build a highway (they still have to pay me). I understand that.

But, I don't need a "public" license to do other things on my "private" land. Right? I don't need a license, registration, or insurance to operate my ATV on my own land. Or car. Or motorcycle (M stamp).

The concealed carry permit requirement seems out of place. Let's hope the legislation gnbrotz referred to is passed.

The bolded, is incorrect..........

[JayG23]

Whoa. To operate your 4-wheeler on your own back 40 acres, you need registration with the state? I can see the reason for insurance, since there is the possibility of property damage and massive personal injury with huge medical bills... but registration, as if it were to be used on common roads?

Then again, laws are written by people and sometimes people are goofy and dumb or just looking to carve out a living for themselves. Just like company policies are also written by people and those people are also sometimes stupid or dumb or just trying to carve out a living for themselves.

[Exbiker]

Somebody show me a law that requires insurance and or registration to operate anything on my property.

[TJ76]

There are the rules. If I'm using it for "agricultural" purposes (whatever that means) on my own land, no registration or insurance required.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/atv...ation.aspx

Sorry, the link isn't working for me. But you get the idea. Search the DCNR website for atv registration.

[Aran]

I know quite literally zero people who'd even consider registering an ATV.

[Statkowski]

In a nutshell, it's Title 75, Chapter 77 of the Pa. Statutes, found here: Snowmobile/ATV Law

ATV Registration, Titling and Insurance

Who must register and title?
All ATVs in Pennsylvania, except ATVs used solely for business or agricultural purposes, need to be registered and titled with DCNR. ATVs used in Pennsylvania must be registered and titled with DCNR's Snowmobile/ATV Section. The ATV registration and titling fees are NOT user fees for the privilege of using trails on state-owned land. The fees provide funding to administer the program, maintain trails on DCNR-managed parks and forests, and provide grants to profit and non-profit organizations for developing additional riding opportunities.

Two types of registrations apply:

Registration

* For ATVs used anywhere off of your own property or property leased by you, such as designated State Forest trails
* $20 fee every two years

Limited registration

* For ATVs used solely on your own land or land leased by you
* Free registration
* No expiration, unless ownership of vehicle changes

[Exbiker]

(05-03-2010 09:16 AM)TJ76 Wrote:  http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/atv...ation.aspx

Sorry, the link isn't working for me. But you get the idea. Search the DCNR website for atv registration.

Dam, you showed me something I never would have believed. Although we always had motocross bikes and it seems they aren`t addressed in that law.
One more reason not to own an ATV, I`ll stick to 2 wheels.