Pa. Open Carry ~Responsible carry, in the open.

Hello, i have had my license to carrry for four years, oc pretty often. My girlfriend is 19, if i read the law right then she is allowed to oc, am i correct? My other question is that since i have license to carry once we get in the car can we leave the gun she is oc'ing loaded if she takes it off and i put it under my seat?

I was alos wondering what everyone thought of the idea of her oc'ing unloaded foe a while until she gets used to haiving it on. she does know how to shot and gun safety. she will only be oc'ing when i am with her for now

My advice is to teach her how to shoot and properly handle the gun before carrying it. If she is going to OC then she should get on here or http://www.pafoa.org and read some other peoples storys. Learn to walk to walk first. Remeber you must Crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.

Quote:Hello, i have had my license to carrry for four years, oc pretty often. My girlfriend is 19, if i read the law right then she is allowed to oc, am i correct?

Yes, you are correct, as long as she is allowed to own a firearm.

Quote:My other question is that since i have license to carry once we get in the car can we leave the gun she is oc'ing loaded if she takes it off and i put it under my seat?

As long as the vehicle is registered to you then it would be OK. HOWEVER, since SHE does not have a LTCF, I am not completely sure that is a legal manuver on her end. MHO

Quote: I was alos wondering what everyone thought of the idea of her oc'ing unloaded foe a while until she gets used to haiving it on. she does know how to shot and gun safety. she will only be oc'ing when i am with her for now

Before she carries a gun she NEEDS to know how it works and how to shoot it. SAFETY FIRST!! As for her carrying unloaded, well, she might as well put a couple of rocks in her pockets. If anyone carries a handgun it should be loaded, otherwise, what would be the point. Take her to the range! Let her know what shooting is all about.

*Nothing posted by me is meant to be sarcastic and is only my opinion*

i guess you guys didnt read everythuing i wrote, i said she can shoot and knows gun safety, you guys should read the whole thing befor you respond

When I say "how to shoot it" I am not just talking about pointing and pulling the trigger. It ties in with "how it works".

(09-18-2009 04:51 PM)Mark2528 Wrote: [ -> ]As a cop, if I pulled you over for a legal traffic infraction and I saw a weapon sticking out from under your seat, etc... or any other reason that may lead me to investigate legally, and that weapon was loaded and belonged or was registered to her, who is a non-spouse to you; then she would be going to jail for violating Title 18, Section 6106, carrying a concealed firearm without a LTCF. Especially if you had your weapon on, which would lead me, or any other reasonable person to come to the conclusion that the other weapon was hers.

Bold...did you really just say this?

If OP was wearing both guns...instead of it being under the seat...would that be ok?

(09-18-2009 10:43 PM)mrjam2jab Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-18-2009 04:51 PM)Mark2528 Wrote: [ -> ]As a cop, if I pulled you over for a legal traffic infraction and I saw a weapon sticking out from under your seat, etc... or any other reason that may lead me to investigate legally, and that weapon was loaded and belonged or was registered to her, who is a non-spouse to you; then she would be going to jail for violating Title 18, Section 6106, carrying a concealed firearm without a LTCF. Especially if you had your weapon on, which would lead me, or any other reasonable person to come to the conclusion that the other weapon was hers.

Bold...did you really just say this?

If OP was wearing both guns...instead of it being under the seat...would that be ok?

Whether you want to believe it or not, in PA, and probably just about any other state, when you buy a "Firearm" it's registered to you. I can run your name and date of birth and get all the weapons you've ever owned, or sold. So, yes, I did say that. Do I agree with it? NO, but it is what it is. Now, does the State call it "registering", probably not, I'm sure they have a fancy politically correct term, but I'm not fooled and neither should anyone else.

Just talking about concealed carry and the need for a LTCF. If the OP was wearing both and they were in the vehicle, which would require him to have a LTCF, then no, I would not violate his rights. Why would I or any other cop do that? What I was saying is, "IF" I had other reasons to investigate outside the brief detainment for the traffic violation, then it could lead to the scenario I explained; with the officer checking the "extra" weapon out, especially if the person told the Officer the weapon (Firearm) belonged to someone other than his spouse or parent. Which in the case of concealed carry is the only legal way another person can possess or carry a loaded and concealed firearm belonging to another. Well, there is one other way, and that being a Security Officer "on duty" working under Act 235. In that case he may carry a firearm, concealed in a vehicle, which belongs to the company he works for.

OCing is a different story since the law is absent regarding this, well, unless you're talking about the City of Philadelphia, which is an exception to the rule of OCing and you need a LTCF to OC as well, and ownership of the weapon my be required. But I'm not sure on that.

Also note that I am not an Attorney, and this is my interpretation of the law as written.

(09-19-2009 11:43 AM)Mark2528 Wrote: [ -> ]Whether you want to believe it or not, in PA, and probably just about any other state, when you buy a "Firearm" it's registered to you. I can run your name and date of birth and get all the weapons you've ever owned, or sold. So, yes, I did say that. Do I agree with it? NO, but it is what it is. Now, does the State call it "registering", probably not, I'm sure they have a fancy politically correct term, but I'm not fooled and neither should anyone else.

Just talking about concealed carry and the need for a LTCF. If the OP was wearing both and they were in the vehicle, which would require him to have a LTCF, then no, I would not violate his rights. Why would I or any other cop do that? What I was saying is, "IF" I had other reasons to investigate outside the brief detainment for the traffic violation, then it could lead to the scenario I explained; with the officer checking the "extra" weapon out, especially if the person told the Officer the weapon (Firearm) belonged to someone other than his spouse or parent. Which in the case of concealed carry is the only legal way another person can possess or carry a loaded and [b]concealed firearm belonging to another. [/b]Well, there is one other way, and that being a Security Officer "on duty" working under Act 235. In that case he may carry a firearm, concealed in a vehicle, which belongs to the company he works for.

OCing is a different story since the law is absent regarding this, well, unless you're talking about the City of Philadelphia, which is an exception to the rule of OCing and you need a LTCF to OC as well, and ownership of the weapon my be required. But I'm not sure on that.

Also note that I am not an Attorney, and this is my interpretation of the law as written.

Not quite. One may only loan a "firearm" to a licensee. There is no requirement that it be concealed, only that the person borrowing it be licensed(§ 6115). The only places in the Commonwealth that requires a handgun to be concealed are State Parks.

If the young lady owns the handgun outright she can open carry on foot(except Philly since you need a LTCF), then loan it to the licensee to hold during transporting in a vehicle. Once back out of the vehicle she can OC again.

There are ways for a person under 21 to lawfully obtain a firearm. IE: transfer from a parent or grandparent(spouse, child, grandchild dont apply in this situation). Or transfer through a Sheriff from another person if you can find one that will do it.

(09-20-2009 10:33 AM)Mark2528 Wrote: [ -> ]You are correct, but we are talking about transporting the firearm in a vehicle, and at that point it is considered "Concealed" and requires a LTCF. In order to conceal a weapon of another, that person must be your Spouse or Parent. We are not talking about OCing, since again, the law is absent regarding all matters of OC; with the exception of Philadelphia.

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license (LTCF).
(b) Exceptions
(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

One more note; this group is to promote "legal" carrying of a firearm in the open. The law, or lack there of, is black and white in the matter. Why would we want to promote something, that with the right circumstances, could be illegal? Riding the fine line is not what I feel this group is about; its about protecting our legal right as gun owners to OC when and where we want, minus the few exceptions.
Unless maybe I'm missing something?

Its not that it is considered concealed, its just that the firearm is in the vehicle. Basically its the same thing, just semantics.

With exemption (13), the spirit of that passage is for the times when a licensee leaves a handgun in a vehicle and their spouse or child borrows that said vehicle. Its to protect an innocent and unknowing person from being in violation for accidentally having a handgun in a vehicle. It was never intended to be used as means for an unlicensed spouse or child to get around the requirement of having a "firearm" in a vehicle. ...that is how it was explained to me by a JeffCo judge and a couple state legislators about a little over 10 years ago.

Even though (13) doesn't give full explanation in it's words as I describe, that is how a DA can and may argue it in court. Using (13) as a means to transport is not safe if you are unlicensed.

Now if a licensee is in the vehicle, a simple loaning of the gun by a unlicensed person who is OC'n to the licensee to hold and retain is secure in the law so long as the unlicensed person cannot control the "firearm". 6115 allows the loaning to the licensee regardless of being family or not. Since a licensee is allowed to possess "firearms" in a vehicle, and the licensee is allowed to be loaned a firearm by anyone, that will cover the a unlicensed person means to transport.

I dont believe that expection stops me (having an ltcf) from borrowing an handgun and concealing it off say my best man. That exception I believe is to give a break to say my wife who takes my car up to the store a mile away not knowing my handgun is in the center and not having an ltcf from being hung out to dry.

Quote:§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license (LTCF).
(b) Exceptions
(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

Wife is otherwise eligible to possess, is operating a motor vehicle registered in a spouses name, and contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued to the spouse.

Thats all a hypthotecial, but no where doese that say I cant carry the firearm or my best man concealed if I have a ltcf.

Is my understanding incorrect

Yes, you guys are right. My apologies; I don't know why I was reading it the way I was.

Maybe its due to not reading that part of the crimes code enough since dealing with OCing or legal concealed carry is a non-issue for me, and when dealing with individuals that are breaking the law, the exceptions are skipped over since they do not apply to most of the people we lock up.

Again, my apologies.

All is cool. Its refreshing to see another LEO be carry friendly. There are a great many out there that will bust your chops even if you conceal it and have a license.

Even lawyers and judges that have studied the text of the law and the case law from trials for years cant know every detail by heart. Thats why lawyers generally specialize in one area of the law, and judges refer to law books and prior cases files in adjournment.

As much as some pro-gun folks like to believe, we cant expect an officer to know every detail either.

(09-19-2009 11:43 AM)Mark2528 Wrote: [ -> ]Whether you want to believe it or not, in PA, and probably just about any other state, when you buy a "Firearm" it's registered to you. I can run your name and date of birth and get all the weapons you've ever owned, or sold. So, yes, I did say that. Do I agree with it? NO, but it is what it is. Now, does the State call it "registering", probably not, I'm sure they have a fancy politically correct term, but I'm not fooled and neither should anyone else.

No...not fooled...i do believe its there...but it is illegal for it to be there.

So if she open carries into a store and then when we get back into the car she removes the gun and i put it on or under my seat then i should be ok right? that is the way that i was reading the law, even though we are not married at the time we ar in the vehicle it would be in my possesion not hers and the gun was bought in my name

No she must have a lctf in order for you to loan her the gun to oc with.

why would she need a license for me to loan her a gun to open carry with shen she doesnt need one to oc? No license is needed to oc

(10-03-2009 01:49 PM)bassmaster17327 Wrote: [ -> ]why would she need a license for me to loan her a gun to open carry with shen she doesnt need one to oc? No license is needed to oc

Quote:18 Pa.C.S. § 6115

(a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.
(b) Exception.--
(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:
(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).
(ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing.
(iii) The person who receives the firearm is engaged in a hunter safety program certified by the Pennsylvania Game Commission or a firearm training program or competition sanctioned or approved by the National Rifle Association.
(iv) The person who receives the firearm meets all of the following:
(A) Is under 18 years of age.
(B) Pursuant to section 6110.1 (relating to possession of firearm by minor) is under the supervision, guidance and instruction of a responsible individual who:
(I) is 21 years of age or older; and
(II) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
(v) The person who receives the firearm is lawfully hunting or trapping and is in compliance with the provisions of Title 34 (relating to game).
(vi) A bank or other chartered lending institution is able to adequately secure firearms in its possession.

(ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing

OC is excempt from licensing so wouldnt it be legal?

(10-03-2009 09:53 PM)bassmaster17327 Wrote: [ -> ](ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing

OC is excempt from licensing so wouldnt it be legal?

Oc does not require licensing, but that does not mean that it is exempt. There is a difference. I think your posts reflect illegal or borderline illegal activitys. Just quit trying to skirt the law.

(10-03-2009 09:53 PM)bassmaster17327 Wrote: [ -> ](ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing

OC is excempt from licensing so wouldnt it be legal?

The list of exceptions are listed under 6106(b), there are 16 of them and your girlfriend's situation from what I'm getting, is not listed there.

OC is not an exception. OC is allowed because there is no law regarding it, its the lack of a law which permits it. The information listed in Title 18 regarding the carrying of a firearm only applies to Concealed carry as explained in 6106, and the other chapters. It does not say one word about OCing.

As thetruepyromaniak said, "Just quit trying to skirt the law." Just do what you are allowed according to the law and you'll be fine.